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Old August 20th 16, 02:11 PM posted to misc.consumers.frugal-living
fratermus fratermus is offline
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On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 10:34:01 -0700, Beaver_Fever wrote:


They tried porto-potties downtown LA about ten years. Became havens for
drug use and prostitution, which is a bit inexplicable to me. Even my
dick wouldn't stay hard in a skid row ****ter.


LOL Didn't know about the LA test; thanks for the info.


Now if I can make my goal of $100,000 in the bank, I am going to hobo in
style. I also want to go to Gathering Of The Juggalos at least once in
my life.


Sounds like a blast.

It looks like I'll be able to retire in a few years at 59 on a small
pension. I have always wanted to boondock in the Southwest so I am
researching a small RV in which to live and travel. I might meet you at
an ICP show. :-)

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Old August 20th 16, 02:35 PM posted to misc.consumers.frugal-living
fratermus fratermus is offline
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On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 16:38:03 -0700, wilma6116 wrote:

I'm glad you like Portland, but the 'homeless' population is getting out
of control. The downtown is full of aggressive panhandlers, open
intoxication, and increased violence.


It's an interesting thought that they should be controlled. :-P

I did see many beggars but all the ones that interacted with me were
pleasant. I concede that it may have been an exception and not a typical
experience.

I am not sure I am opposed to open intoxication, assuming they break no
other laws. If we wanted to be consistent we'd also criminalize being
generally stupid or a loud talker in public.

Full agreement about the violence; I am non-aggressive (although armed)
and would prefer that others be non-aggressive, too.


The Springwater Trail, a 40 mile
bicycle path encircling the city, has become lined with homeless camps.


Sounds like a good use of space. Assuming they are otherwise law-abiding.


The freeway embankments are open trash dumbs as the 'homeless' just
throw their trash to the bottom of the hill.


Anyone littering is in the wrong (homeless or otherwise).


Many fires from open fire
pits.


I wonder if this is an opportunity to workshop with the homeless about
traditional hobo cooking setups that do not have open fire. Thinking
something like the the first setup in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgMk-jhA974
although I would cut a small door out of the bottom for adding fuel to
the fire.

I think this would greatly reduce runaway fires, and would reduce the
amount of wood needed to cook.


These 'homeless' communities are becoming permanent, they seem to be the
seeds to slums that one sees in Mumbai and Manila.


I have no problem with permanent homeless communities. They are
*communities*, albeit with rough conditions.

Recently Dallas destroyed a homeless camp that was living under IH45,
basically because it was upsetting for homed folks and visitors to see
the homeless. There had been some violence there, but it's a short
distance to homes in South Dallas where violence and murders are
commonplace. I don't see Dallas destroying *those* communities.


Not a sense of superiority, but it is troubling to the decreased safety
and quality of life for those who are paying a mortgage, and those
but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I unfortunates. Not to mention the tuffs and
thugs who prey on both.


I do understand your point.

Here's a thought experiment, not one that conforms to reality. Consider
the homeless camps in the same locations with the same people. But they
are as well-behaved as a typical person living in a house or apartment.
What would be your reaction to their presence in those circumstances?

Real question, one I am pondering right now. I am trying to understand
the underlying basis of our collective reaction to homelessness. I don't
have a firm grip yet on what informs my own opinion. :-)


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Old August 20th 16, 03:20 PM posted to misc.consumers.frugal-living
Bob F Bob F is offline
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On 8/20/2016 6:35 AM, fratermus wrote:
On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 16:38:03 -0700, wilma6116 wrote:

I'm glad you like Portland, but the 'homeless' population is getting out
of control. The downtown is full of aggressive panhandlers, open
intoxication, and increased violence.


It's an interesting thought that they should be controlled. :-P

I did see many beggars but all the ones that interacted with me were
pleasant. I concede that it may have been an exception and not a typical
experience.

I am not sure I am opposed to open intoxication, assuming they break no
other laws. If we wanted to be consistent we'd also criminalize being
generally stupid or a loud talker in public.

Full agreement about the violence; I am non-aggressive (although armed)
and would prefer that others be non-aggressive, too.


The Springwater Trail, a 40 mile
bicycle path encircling the city, has become lined with homeless camps.


Sounds like a good use of space. Assuming they are otherwise law-abiding.


The freeway embankments are open trash dumbs as the 'homeless' just
throw their trash to the bottom of the hill.


Anyone littering is in the wrong (homeless or otherwise).


Many fires from open fire
pits.


I wonder if this is an opportunity to workshop with the homeless about
traditional hobo cooking setups that do not have open fire. Thinking
something like the the first setup in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgMk-jhA974
although I would cut a small door out of the bottom for adding fuel to
the fire.

I think this would greatly reduce runaway fires, and would reduce the
amount of wood needed to cook.


These 'homeless' communities are becoming permanent, they seem to be the
seeds to slums that one sees in Mumbai and Manila.


I have no problem with permanent homeless communities. They are
*communities*, albeit with rough conditions.

Recently Dallas destroyed a homeless camp that was living under IH45,
basically because it was upsetting for homed folks and visitors to see
the homeless. There had been some violence there, but it's a short
distance to homes in South Dallas where violence and murders are
commonplace. I don't see Dallas destroying *those* communities.


Not a sense of superiority, but it is troubling to the decreased safety
and quality of life for those who are paying a mortgage, and those
but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I unfortunates. Not to mention the tuffs and
thugs who prey on both.


I do understand your point.

Here's a thought experiment, not one that conforms to reality. Consider
the homeless camps in the same locations with the same people. But they
are as well-behaved as a typical person living in a house or apartment.
What would be your reaction to their presence in those circumstances?

Real question, one I am pondering right now. I am trying to understand
the underlying basis of our collective reaction to homelessness. I don't
have a firm grip yet on what informs my own opinion. :-)


One of the problems of the homeless is that a number of homeless people
have significant mental problems. Not a large percentage, mind you, but
enough that behavior problems may stand out. Some of those people might
have been institutionalized in previous times, but that seems not to be
an option any more. So they are on the street, without care or treatment
in many cases.
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Old August 20th 16, 08:42 PM posted to misc.consumers.frugal-living
The Real Bev[_6_] The Real Bev[_6_] is offline
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On 08/20/2016 06:35 AM, fratermus wrote:

Real question, one I am pondering right now. I am trying to
understand the underlying basis of our collective reaction to
homelessness. I don't have a firm grip yet on what informs my own
opinion. :-)


Around here a lot of the homeless are mentally ill. My automatic
reaction is to not make eye contact and walk quickly past. If
importuned for spare change, I politely say "No thank you" which makes
no sense at all but might confuse them for a moment. (I was once told
that a good thing for bicyclists being chased by dogs to yell was GET
OFF THE COUCH! for the same reason. )

A woman walking with a toddler was attacked by a loon with a hunk of
rebar a quarter mile from my house. The loon then went to a nearby
McDonald's and hit somebody there with the rebar. It took 10 minutes
for the cops to show up.

When you can't distinguish the loons from the merely homeless, you have
to assume that they're all loons.

--
Cheers, Bev
"One's chances of winning the lottery are not appreciably
improved by actually buying a ticket."
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Old August 20th 16, 08:45 PM posted to misc.consumers.frugal-living
The Real Bev[_6_] The Real Bev[_6_] is offline
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On 08/20/2016 07:20 AM, Bob F wrote:

One of the problems of the homeless is that a number of homeless people
have significant mental problems. Not a large percentage, mind you, but
enough that behavior problems may stand out. Some of those people might
have been institutionalized in previous times, but that seems not to be
an option any more. So they are on the street, without care or treatment
in many cases.


1. It costs money.

2. According to lawsuits by (I think) the ACLU several decades ago, it
violates their civil rights to lock them up unless they are provably a
danger to themselves or others.

I approve of the ACLU, but just because something is right doesn't make
it pleasant.


--
Cheers, Bev
"One's chances of winning the lottery are not appreciably
improved by actually buying a ticket."


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Old August 20th 16, 10:24 PM posted to misc.consumers.frugal-living
[email protected] Wilma6116@gmail.com is offline
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On Saturday, August 20, 2016 at 6:35:07 AM UTC-7, fratermus wrote:

I do understand your point.


I don't think you do.



Here's a thought experiment, not one that conforms to reality. Consider
the homeless camps in the same locations with the same people. But they
are as well-behaved as a typical person living in a house or apartment.
What would be your reaction to their presence in those circumstances?

Real question, one I am pondering right now. I am trying to understand
the underlying basis of our collective reaction to homelessness. I don't
have a firm grip yet on what informs my own opinion. :-)


My problem with blue tarp cities can be summed up by a few pictures. Look for pictures of the slums of Mumbai. Is this how we want to have a growing portion of our population to live? Will this become acceptable?

These encampments are breeding grounds for disease. They are fire hazards. They instill a sense of hopelessness, that breeds crime and a lack of respect for others. The camps are ecological disasters, chemicals and waste is discarded easily as possible with out regards. And then it comes down to me, where I don't feel safe using public spaces, my property is not safe, I even have to make sure I don't dally putting my trash to the curb, because the trash pickers will be coming on to my property to go through my containers and take what they find- trash or otherwise.

As technology increasingly makes workers obsolete, we should be looking to give everyone universal income, with the understand we are all entitled to food enough, shelter, and basic medical care.
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Old August 21st 16, 04:59 AM posted to misc.consumers.frugal-living
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On 08/20/2016 02:24 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2016 at 6:35:07 AM UTC-7, fratermus wrote:

I do understand your point.


I don't think you do.



Here's a thought experiment, not one that conforms to reality.
Consider the homeless camps in the same locations with the same
people. But they are as well-behaved as a typical person living in
a house or apartment. What would be your reaction to their presence
in those circumstances?

Real question, one I am pondering right now. I am trying to
understand the underlying basis of our collective reaction to
homelessness. I don't have a firm grip yet on what informs my own
opinion. :-)


My problem with blue tarp cities can be summed up by a few pictures.
Look for pictures of the slums of Mumbai. Is this how we want to have
a growing portion of our population to live? Will this become
acceptable?

These encampments are breeding grounds for disease. They are fire
hazards. They instill a sense of hopelessness, that breeds crime and
a lack of respect for others. The camps are ecological disasters,
chemicals and waste is discarded easily as possible with out regards.
And then it comes down to me, where I don't feel safe using public
spaces, my property is not safe, I even have to make sure I don't
dally putting my trash to the curb, because the trash pickers will be
coming on to my property to go through my containers and take what
they find- trash or otherwise.

As technology increasingly makes workers obsolete, we should be
looking to give everyone universal income, with the understand we are
all entitled to food enough, shelter, and basic medical care.


1. Where does the money come from? Who's going to decide that we
should grow food rather than corn for ethanol? What if they decide that
it's immoral to grow meat? Or make candy?

2. Do the homeless get individual 3-bedroom homes or SRO rooms in a
high-rise? Do you want a "project" near your home? Are you willing to
pay for homeless people to live in better houses than you do?

3. How are we going to get enough medical care to provide DECENT care
for everyone?

We're already stealing doctors and nurses from other countries, and the
ones that are here are retiring or cutting back to a few days a week. I
have the luxury of being able to go elsewhere if I don't like a doctor,
but this is clearly not possible for everyone because there aren't
enough good doctors for everyone to have one and some people are just
too dumb to know the difference.

What DO we do with the surplus people who are no longer economically
productive? What do we do with the economically unproductive people
we're importing from third-world countries?

--
Cheers, Bev
"We need to cut more slack for the stupid; after all, somebody has
to populate the lower part of the bell curve." -- Dennis (evil)
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Old August 21st 16, 05:50 AM posted to misc.consumers.frugal-living
Bob F Bob F is offline
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On 8/20/2016 8:59 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
On 08/20/2016 02:24 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, August 20, 2016 at 6:35:07 AM UTC-7, fratermus wrote:

I do understand your point.


I don't think you do.



Here's a thought experiment, not one that conforms to reality.
Consider the homeless camps in the same locations with the same
people. But they are as well-behaved as a typical person living in
a house or apartment. What would be your reaction to their presence
in those circumstances?

Real question, one I am pondering right now. I am trying to
understand the underlying basis of our collective reaction to
homelessness. I don't have a firm grip yet on what informs my own
opinion. :-)


My problem with blue tarp cities can be summed up by a few pictures.
Look for pictures of the slums of Mumbai. Is this how we want to have
a growing portion of our population to live? Will this become
acceptable?

These encampments are breeding grounds for disease. They are fire
hazards. They instill a sense of hopelessness, that breeds crime and
a lack of respect for others. The camps are ecological disasters,
chemicals and waste is discarded easily as possible with out regards.
And then it comes down to me, where I don't feel safe using public
spaces, my property is not safe, I even have to make sure I don't
dally putting my trash to the curb, because the trash pickers will be
coming on to my property to go through my containers and take what
they find- trash or otherwise.

As technology increasingly makes workers obsolete, we should be
looking to give everyone universal income, with the understand we are
all entitled to food enough, shelter, and basic medical care.


1. Where does the money come from? Who's going to decide that we
should grow food rather than corn for ethanol? What if they decide that
it's immoral to grow meat? Or make candy?

2. Do the homeless get individual 3-bedroom homes or SRO rooms in a
high-rise? Do you want a "project" near your home? Are you willing to
pay for homeless people to live in better houses than you do?

3. How are we going to get enough medical care to provide DECENT care
for everyone?

We're already stealing doctors and nurses from other countries, and the
ones that are here are retiring or cutting back to a few days a week. I
have the luxury of being able to go elsewhere if I don't like a doctor,
but this is clearly not possible for everyone because there aren't
enough good doctors for everyone to have one and some people are just
too dumb to know the difference.

What DO we do with the surplus people who are no longer economically
productive? What do we do with the economically unproductive people
we're importing from third-world countries?


And who are we to decide who is a productive member of society? Is
making money your only benchmark? How much? What do YOU do with people
YOU decide are surplus? Does retiring make you surplus? You are getting
into horror movie territory. I am sure the Koch brothers would be happy
to give us their "correct" answers. I hope they never get that opportunity.

Some people would say that immigrants are more productive than native
workers.

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Old August 21st 16, 07:40 AM posted to misc.consumers.frugal-living
[email protected] Wilma6116@gmail.com is offline
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On Saturday, August 20, 2016 at 8:59:18 PM UTC-7, The Real Bev wrote:


As technology increasingly makes workers obsolete, we should be
looking to give everyone universal income, with the understand we are
all entitled to food enough, shelter, and basic medical care.




1. Where does the money come from?


Everyone gets $X amount of food stamps (enough for basic substance). If you are average earner, you'll get as much food as you are taxed. If you make more you'll be taxed more.



Who's going to decide that we
should grow food rather than corn for ethanol?


Common decency should be one factor determining.



What if they decide that
it's immoral to grow meat? Or make candy?


When has that happened? No one is deciding how you spend your food money.

2. Do the homeless get individual 3-bedroom homes or SRO rooms in a
high-rise?


Shelter. Shelter, got it. Ain't no one going to be productive if they don't have a place to live.


Do you want a "project" near your home? Are you willing to
pay for homeless people to live in better houses than you do?


Who said anything like that? Making up an argument where there is none? Look, Salt Lake City provided housing for its homeless. They wound up saving money by less hospital visits, less jail visits and some of the people able to stand up and get back on their feet. Look it up, plenty of articles on the subject.



3. How are we going to get enough medical care to provide DECENT care
for everyone?


We do it now, anyway. If we provide preventative medicine, if we provide early diagnosis and treatment, we save a lot of money.





What DO we do with the surplus people who are no longer economically
productive? What do we do with the economically unproductive people
we're importing from third-world countries?


I don't know. I'm not one to think we have "surplus people". I suppose we'll leave that type of thought to people like you.

As technology eliminates the need for labor, we are coming to a crossroad, we must determine if there are "surplus people" or if everyone is entitled to basic needs, without exception, without explanation and without judgement.
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Old August 21st 16, 07:43 PM posted to misc.consumers.frugal-living
fratermus fratermus is offline
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On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 12:42:51 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

When you can't distinguish the loons from the merely homeless, you have
to assume that they're all loons.


True. And one could say the same about the general population.


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